Something Paul preaches repeatedly. Good point. Gamaliel taught between A.D. 22-55, giving us an approximate early date for Paul's education. To date, there is either historical nor tradional evidence to support Sauls presence. Paul did a much better job of marketing himself, and he wrote about himself hundreds of times. Polhil states that perhaps around the age of fourteen to sixteen Paul went to Jerusalem to study under Gamaliel (Acts 22:3), (30). This is very similar to The Beatles- All you need is love. But the testimonies of the era indicate he would have become a ward and trainee of Gamaliel in the age range of 10-14. Paul claims to have been educated by Gamaliel, one of the premier teachers of the Law in the first century. Besides Jesus, all the characters in the Bible had frailties- like Jonah and Paul. I dont see this in the text. He comes back to nonviolence and tolerance in his ministry (how he handles the riots and the scourgings). Yet hes from the school of Shammi? ), Phillip, In your other post on Paul and Gamaliel http://readingacts.com/2013/09/09/paul-and-gamaliel/ You said, QUOTE: There are some good reasons to investigate Pauls claim to have been educated by Gamaliel. Never mind what Paul said. Probably his training with Gamaliel would have been concluded by the time he was twenty and would have given Paul a very good understanding of Old Testament Scripture. . You will be called Rocky. Romans 10:4 states For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. He appointed twelve designating them apostles that they might be with him [Mark 3:13-14], Three chapters later, Then Jesus went around teaching from village to village. a. (Acts 18:18) Reference to Torah (num 6:2-6, 13-18) Paul leave Philippi after Observing Unleavened bread (1 Cor. What were Pauls sins as a Christian? These mostly have something to do with marriage and divorce. It isnt a question of mens opinions about what Paul really meant or what Paul must have known or what Paul was actually referring to here or what Paul was clearly implying or what we must conclude that Paul was assuming, etc. Without such a solid basis in the Torah and the Jewish Law that he got from studying under Gamaliel, I doubt Pauls conversion and ministry thereafter would have been as impacting or provocative. what is your source for that requirement? Share of voice equals share of mind. I differ from many of my former teachers, though I still appreciate their perspective. Id better buy a case of chalk and some more erasers. Which owner would be upset if we finished early? How long will you waver between two opinions? blasphemy! There are three things bearing on this subject among the incidental intimations which we have in respect to the early history of Saul, viz. [erase erase erase], Of course, you both are specifically mentioned in Acts 6:2. Tarsus of Cilicia. As Gamaliels Christianity is attested in the Clementine Literature, one may, with care, posit an early date for the tradition. No need to answer. They believe after reading his writings the law is done away with, you can eat what you want and he was anti Judaism. According to Jesus, which Commandment is the Most Important? Maase Hatorah -works of the law 2. Removing that aspect will cause misunderstanding of what they were teaching. Paul, Silas, and Timothy desired to enter Asia to spread the gospel there, but the Holy Spirit prevented them. But this seems to be where the peaceful teachings of Gamaliel shine stronger. No research was taken into account of what the yeshivas of HIllel and Shammi taught and believed. N. T. Wright describes the Shammaite Pharisee as a militant hard-liner that was not willing to work with Rome as long as they could study the Torah, as Hillel had said (What Saint Paul Really Said, 26). .1) There is more New Testament text written specifically about the Church in Corinth than any other church, by far. These lines of reasoning all go back to the false idea that Paul must have been right and Paul couldnt possibly be wrong, so whatever Paul was thinking at the time must have been correct, and we just have to figure out what Pauls intended meaning was and what Paul was really thinking when he wrote these words. That would mean that your opinion about the unknowable unwritten mind of Paul becomes the Word of God. No. FWIW, the name is spelled Ron Moseley. Gamaliel taught between A.D. 22-55, giving us an approximate early date for Paul's education. Mainstream Judaism resistance to Paul isnt a sign of absolute proof that he wasnt a student of Hillel. That the latter paid especial attention to study is shown by the remarkable classification of pupils ascribed to him, for which a classification of the fish of Palestine formed a basis (Ab. Therefore, he must have planted these groups himself. Yes you clearly are removing them from Jewish culture and using Constantine-Christianity and replacement theology to float most of your website. His voice is so much greater Than paul the Pharisee. I would like to check that reference if possible. I admit this is all speculation and I dont have a shred of evidence for any of this but it makes me wonder if Paul was trying to start something extraordinary within Judaism (As he mentions in his defense in Acts 22) and God harnessed that ambition for the glory and advancement of His Church. This status gave him special privileges, and in some cases saved him from abuse (Acts 22:25-29). I would think that he would include that in his self-description as the chief of sinners. We should follow the Jesus of the Gospel writers. If probably, then how would we know whether Paul ever pulled a rare Justice Rehnquist move, where Rehnquist sides with liberal Justices and dissents against conservatives in weird and inexplicable single cases or two? One hint is the resistance to Pauline Christianity by both Second Temple Judaism and more conservative Jewish Christians like James.Most scholars of the period talk about early Judaisms, plural, since there was in fact a range of practice and belief in the first century. And one for Muhammad too. Although there are many remarkably similarities between Paul and HIllel, there are serious differences between what might be considered the mainstream of Judaism which survived A.D. 70 (Hillel for the most part) and Pauline Christianity. Paul was a Pharisee. Acts 22:3 - "I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of Youre the one playing fast and loose because youve made nonsense article doctrine even though Paul verbatim tell you where he comes from, his theology. Sign up. A generation before Christ there were two great rabbis, Hillel and Shammai. http://www.problemswithpaul.com/Apostle_Paul.html. To what extent should we use Pauls training at the feet of Gamaliel as background to understanding his later theology? There is no god but God Shahada part 1 in Islam. One special person, alone, with special words, and a special title, who could never be WRONG. Not to say that Paul completely left his Jewish heritage (thats a separate blog) and the almost violent passion with which he held onto them (see Galatians 5:12). three years His claim before . Neither Paul, nor James, nor Luke were with Jesus and the Apostles the whole time, so they were not qualified to be a witness with the Apostles of Jesus resurrection, which is what it means to be an Apostle. 1:1, / 1 Cor. . Or does he break away from Gamaliel and the Pharisees in other ways? Exactly what Issa p al Masih did about 500 years earlier! No mention of a cloudy past No hint of condemnation. Posting links about Judaism doesnt correlate that you actually understand Judaism. Well then, I will stop responding to you since you are not interested in learning anything which does not conform to your already-made-up mind. How can we account for this violent reaction in a man trained by Gamaliel? And 1 as 1. Its based on a misinterpretation, out of context, of one verse in one letter written by one man, Paul the Pharisee, who was unfamiliar with the personal ministry and teaching of Jesus. Paul claims in Philippians 3 to be a Hebrew of the Hebrews, some people take that as a saying we spoke Hebrew at home, not Greek or Aramaic. he wouldn't just give it all up on a whim, especially not to be jailed, flogged, persecuted, and executed for it. If the Hillel tradition did not offer plasticity enough to justify Pauls missions against Christians, is it possible that Paul felt that he stayed basically faithful to Gamaliel/Hillels school and to mercy because the predominant number (majority of cases) of Pauls concrete cases against Christians did not require threats of death (i.e., how many Christians caved in?). Definition of tentmaker 1 : one that makes tents. So get to work! Even Festus said that Paul was very learned, Acts 26:24. Philo of Alexandria can be thought of as more moderate to liberal on the Law, his brother completely rejected his Jewish heritage (providing the most extreme position possible). Who was Paul's mentor in his study of Judaism? I do not think, however, that Paul was a Christian Pharisee. Mainstream Judaism also reject Josephus and its evident that he was clearly Jewish. did I miss something? Taken directly from Talmud. Dang, I wrote that and didnt respond to your last point. Pauls speech and thought directly lines up with the teachings of Hillel. He states that if the apostolic movement is from God then it cannot be stopped, if it is not form God then it cannot succeed. This is a question our experts keep getting from time to time. But that isnt the only meaning, or even the first and primary meaning. Note: ingrafted Gentiles were branches of the tree and not replacements of Israel of the entire tree (replacement theology). get up set if you want ,,but Paul was that , dont believe it ? As much as I appreciate you keeping an almost 4 year old thread alive, you just do not contribute much to the conversation. I trust that no one is offended and that as a result of this comment, we might get closer to Him, The Truth. Acts recounts the times he faced persecution (13:45; 14:19) and risked his . The Astounding Conversion of Paul I know! Critics also say that Pauls exegesis takes from later documents. Even if someone wants to be argumentative and say we cant prove that Judas wasnt there at the time, we certainly cant prove that Judas WAS there. While Gamaliel was seemingly somewhat relaxed in his view of the Torah, Paul seemed to take it so seriously, that he believed the Christians truly did deserve to be persecuted for believing in a false Messiah. But we surely can trust that Paul was as Acts 22:3 states: I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathers law, and was zealous toward God as you all are today.. Somehow Barnabas who was at the Pentecost knew Saul! Not the Baptists, Lutherans etc. We cannot work on assumption that Paul was different to what the book of Acts says. I am not sure you can compare Pauls education to a modern one. Paul claims to have been educated by Gamaliel, one of the premier teachers of the Law in the first century. brought up . Gamaliel (Acts 22:3) Who wrote 1 and 2 Timothy? Why is it so hard to give a straight answer to this simple question? Gamaliel Paul, in a speech to the Jews, tried to influence them by stating that he had been a student of Gamaliel ("I am a Jew, . The overwhelming majority of the epistles is actually fighting against the teachings of Shammai in his time period. Considering the writing of the Mishnah and Talumd are collection of previous works from various Yeshivas (ie before the New Testament) clearly shows you have no idea what youre talking about in regards to Judaism and how the text was culminated. Calling him a good man (Acts 11:24), a prophet and teacher (13:1), an apostle (14:14) and one through whom God worked miracles (15:12), Acts loads him with accolades. You dont know him, and Ive just barely met him. and to make a point in this conversation,where did you get the idea that Saul (Paul) was Jewish.? Hes actually stating his lineage and why he should have the floor to speak. Is AARP PO Box 93143 Long Beach CA 90809-9720 a valid address? If one lies and is decieved that it somehow abounds to Gods glory, that lying isnt a sin ESPECIALLY where God is concerned, what WONT they lie about? (And Peter certainly doesnt point to the words of some other man, a Pharisee at that, -Paul- and say that this other mans word is the word of God.). His most recent book is The Book of Enoch for Beginners: A Guide to Expand Your Understanding of the Biblical World (Rockridge, 2022). Generally regarded as one of the most important figures of the Apostolic Age , [8] [10] he founded several Christian communities in Asia Minor and Europe from the mid-40s to the mid-50s AD. If Paul began study at the latest age of 16, we can guess a birth year of about 6 at the earliest. The Apostle Paul met him during his second missionary journey and he became Paul's companion and missionary partner along with Silas. For Rabbi Saul, the idea that the messiah could be killed is wrong but is it enough to account for a violent reaction like Acts 7 and the stoning of Stephen? What was his last name? Because we must establish a matter by the testimony of two or three witnesses, especially something as important as What is the Word of God. No one else in the pages of the Bible besides Paul ever said anything like All Scripture is God-breathed. I feel that (not competent to know) clusters of questions like these make me second-guess just how far N.T. 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